#1 February 15th, 2005 11:26 AM

Violex_Kitty

Member

The Evolution Of The Nude

First post  from a new member...though have been lurking for a while.
Several days ago a friend and I held a conversation about the evolution of the nude.  Just as each decade has its distinct fashions, it also has a unique sex-in-the-underground-media fingerprint.  Keeping it simple, I used some more stereoptypical examples - camp and cheesy mustaches of the 70's, gaudy big-breasted Playboy blondes of the 80's, whilst the 90's revelled in celebrity scandals, extreme shock-value fetishism and overt plasticity...  So now we're in the noughties, where do we go from here?
Has anyone else noticed that we're stepping back in time?  The crux of the discussion had was that we are experiencing a return to the Slow Reveal - not prudism, but imaginative nudity, where less is more.   This is being embodied in popular media (shows like Carnivalè, band support groups like The Dresden Dolls' Brigade Troupe), and a seemingly renewed fascination with burlesque theatre-style nudity.  Where the ideal of a 'perfect figure' is being wrested back from glib and sleazy salesmen by artists and women alike.
Is this due to sex oversaturation?  Did they take it too far in the 90's?  I'm interested in varying viewpoints in relation to this topic...
O, and Hi.

GusTheMynahBird

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

First post  from a new member...though have been lurking for a while.
Several days ago a friend and I held a conversation about the evolution of the nude.  Just as each decade has its distinct fashions, it also has a unique sex-in-the-underground-media fingerprint.  Keeping it simple, I used some more stereoptypical examples - camp and cheesy mustaches of the 70's, gaudy big-breasted Playboy blondes of the 80's, whilst the 90's revelled in celebrity scandals, extreme shock-value fetishism and overt plasticity...  So now we're in the noughties, where do we go from here?
Has anyone else noticed that we're stepping back in time?  The crux of the discussion had was that we are experiencing a return to the Slow Reveal - not prudism, but imaginative nudity, where less is more.   This is being embodied in popular media (shows like Carnivalè, band support groups like The Dresden Dolls' Brigade Troupe), and a seemingly renewed fascination with burlesque theatre-style nudity.  Where the ideal of a 'perfect figure' is being wrested back from glib and sleazy salesmen by artists and women alike.
Is this due to sex oversaturation?  Did they take it too far in the 90's?  I'm interested in varying viewpoints in relation to this topic...
O, and Hi.

There has been a bit of a backlash against manufactured, stereotyped porn: airbrushed, breast-enhanced models in the same formulaic poses and such. This is at least partly due to the many-to-many nature of the internet, as opposed to the less responsive, broadcast nature of traditional media.

I heard a while ago that mainstream porn publishers are now deliberately making some of their material more "lo-fi" (i.e., putting in overexposed/out-of-focus/poorly-framed shots) to give it more of a sense of authenticity. Which, I suppose, is sort of the porn equivalent of Alanis Morisette/Avril Lavigne or something like that.

Violex_Kitty

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

There has been a bit of a backlash against manufactured, stereotyped porn: airbrushed, breast-enhanced models in the same formulaic poses and such. This is at least partly due to the many-to-many nature of the internet, as opposed to the less responsive, broadcast nature of traditional media.

I heard a while ago that mainstream porn publishers are now deliberately making some of their material more "lo-fi" (i.e., putting in overexposed/out-of-focus/poorly-framed shots) to give it more of a sense of authenticity. Which, I suppose, is sort of the porn equivalent of Alanis Morisette/Avril Lavigne or something like that.

Do you think that this backlash and reverting to a feel of  authenticity makes pornography/nudity in the public more accessible, both to men and women, as the trend is seeming to indicate?

(Also, where is your username/I.D. from?  Tell me it's a tribute to Waldo the Mynah Bird from Twin Peaks!)

GusTheMynahBird

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

Do you think that this backlash and reverting to a feel of  authenticity makes pornography/nudity in the public more accessible, both to men and women, as the trend is seeming to indicate?

Partly. The fact that it's unscripted and controlled by the author can make it more accessible to those who don't like the narrow range of traditional porn scenarios. The fact that it's more personal, with the person in the photos having creative control and using it as a means of expression, also makes it more compelling.
This may increase its appeal to women, as there is more of a sense of interaction with the subject of the photos (as opposed to them being merely an object of sexual fantasy, as in traditional porn). (It is an often quoted assertion that men think more in terms of self-contained objects, while women think more in terms of relationships between entities; this is, of course, a broad generalisation.)

(Also, where is your username/I.D. from?  Tell me it's a tribute to Waldo the Mynah Bird from Twin Peaks!)

Actually, it's a Stereolab song title.

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

if you don't mind, i have a question. in discussions of nudity, i think people often assume, or only consider female nudity. is this because most guys are all-too-willing to get naked, and it's assumed it's more of a challenge to find a girl comfortable enough with nudity?  for instance, i'm a guy with body dysmorphia issues (i.e. false misperception, according to my counsellor), and i'd like to see some examples of real-life naked guys on this site to maybe help me out with this.
So what i'm saying is: the evolution of the nude. it always involves evolution of the perception of the female nude, exclusively, right?

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that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

voyeur2

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

if you don't mind, i have a question. in discussions of nudity, i think people often assume, or only consider female nudity. is this because most guys are all-too-willing to get naked, and it's assumed it's more of a challenge to find a girl comfortable enough with nudity?  for instance, i'm a guy with body dysmorphia issues (i.e. false misperception, according to my counsellor), and i'd like to see some examples of real-life naked guys on this site to maybe help me out with this.
So what i'm saying is: the evolution of the nude. it always involves evolution of the perception of the female nude, exclusively, right?

I would be willing to contribute a folio, (60 yr old male) but I think head would not be interested.  And by the way, I think there would be quite a resistance by many males to nude photography of themselves, and as much difficulty fiding aesthetically appealing presentations.  Looking at the girls here, and reading what they say about their fav bits to look at - makes me think many men have the wrong idea of what to show about themselves.  And what is sexy to show.
Beefcake aint cheesecake

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Have I ever lied to you before?

Violex_Kitty

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

if you don't mind, i have a question. in discussions of nudity, i think people often assume, or only consider female nudity. is this because most guys are all-too-willing to get naked, and it's assumed it's more of a challenge to find a girl comfortable enough with nudity?  for instance, i'm a guy with body dysmorphia issues (i.e. false misperception, according to my counsellor), and i'd like to see some examples of real-life naked guys on this site to maybe help me out with this.
So what i'm saying is: the evolution of the nude. it always involves evolution of the perception of the female nude, exclusively, right?

Actually, that's a very good point - you caught me out.  And no, I don't mind your jumping in to ask...this is as good a place for discussion and conversation as any!  To me, the word 'nude' has become somewhat gender specific - ít makes me think of women ("Live Nudes!", art, etc).  Whereas a word like 'nudist' has me thinking of men.  The former word suggests (to me) a certain passive nature, whereas the latter more pro-active.  Maybe it's just me that feels this way?  Every now and then I am reminded to reassess my assumptions that have been instilled from a very young age...this is how I (try to) learn to break from stereotypes.  I'm a work in progress.
As for your body dysmorphia issues, I believe it is a product of our generation/s and times that we have such warped misconceptions of how 'ab/normal' our bodies are.  Having access to the everyday man at your fingertips might actually assist in putting your concerns into perspective, yes.  But would having male folios on a site such as this dramatically change the nature of the site?  From what i've read in these forums, we all seem to have hit upon a good thing.  Still, it's something to consider.

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

  But would having male folios on a site such as this dramatically change the nature of the site?  From what i've read in these forums, we all seem to have hit upon a good thing.  Still, it's something to consider.

well, i remember back a while, maybe 2003, when a site "ism_boys" was considered. Head posted, after no such site came about, that the submissions were "anything but Mapplethorpe", or something like that. Mapplethorpe's "Thom 10 1/2", the statue of David. The "Cool Water" magazine model. Is that the ideal male nude? and anything else no one wants to see?
so- to get back to your point.  the Project presents the uncommercial female nude, but a similar site was pulled because the men weren't pretty enough, i guess?

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

Violex_Kitty

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

I would be willing to contribute a folio, (60 yr old male) but I think head would not be interested.  And by the way, I think there would be quite a resistance by many males to nude photography of themselves, and as much difficulty fiding aesthetically appealing presentations.  Looking at the girls here, and reading what they say about their fav bits to look at - makes me think many men have the wrong idea of what to show about themselves.  And what is sexy to show.
Beefcake aint cheesecake

I think as many girls are interested in beefcake as men are interested in the female varient...so yes, a few!  But not all.  I actually don't know any women who pick brawn over substance, but I move in a specific social circle, I guess.
Another interesting point - how would men go about shooting a folio?  Certainly it would be interesting, but does it have an audience? 
I love sites like ISM because I appreciate all forms of artistic expression via nudity - male and female.  And for similar reasons as wantingscott, I like to see REAL women, as it loosens the grip of the media and how they present unrealistic body archetypes as something to be coveted. It makes me feel a bit more 'normal'.
As for your very own folio shoot, there's nothing stopping you from experimenting, and shooting a folio for your own entertainment and artistic satisfaction!  I do my own personal shoots, as they help build confidence and allow you to get to know yourself and your body in ways you possibly couldn't do otherwise.

Violex_Kitty

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

well, i remember back a while, maybe 2003, when a site "ism_boys" was considered. Head posted, after no such site came about, that the submissions were "anything but Mapplethorpe", or something like that. Mapplethorpe's "Thom 10 1/2", the statue of David. The "Cool Water" magazine model. Is that the ideal male nude? and anything else no one wants to see?
so- to get back to your point.  the Project presents the uncommercial female nude, but a similar site was pulled because the men weren't pretty enough, i guess?

I never saw the site, so cannot really say for sure - but I kind of doubt that the men not being pretty enough was the cause for it being pulled.  ISM seems to promote all avenues of beauty, even if they fall outside of conventions.  Perhaps the shots weren't overly artistic - Mapplethorpe takes beautiful photographs of beautiful people, but they're still artfully presented (as are many if not most of the folios on ISM).  But another interesting point you got going there.

Violex_Kitty

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

Partly. The fact that it's unscripted and controlled by the author can make it more accessible to those who don't like the narrow range of traditional porn scenarios. The fact that it's more personal, with the person in the photos having creative control and using it as a means of expression, also makes it more compelling.
This may increase its appeal to women, as there is more of a sense of interaction with the subject of the photos (as opposed to them being merely an object of sexual fantasy, as in traditional porn). (It is an often quoted assertion that men think more in terms of self-contained objects, while women think more in terms of relationships between entities; this is, of course, a broad generalisation.)

Actually, it's a Stereolab song title.

My mistake - my Twin Peaks obsession tends to overrun all other pop culture trivia in my brain when i'm not paying too much attention *S*.

Head

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

I never saw the site, so cannot really say for sure - but I kind of doubt that the men not being pretty enough was the cause for it being pulled.  ISM seems to promote all avenues of beauty, even if they fall outside of conventions.  Perhaps the shots weren't overly artistic - Mapplethorpe takes beautiful photographs of beautiful people, but they're still artfully presented (as are many if not most of the folios on ISM).  But another interesting point you got going there.

It wasn't what the men ~looked like~, it was what they were ~doing~ which was ugly.  Anyway, nearly all girls look pretty naked.  Few men do.  Body hair on women is natural and beautiful, but on men it's just simian.  It's the way things are.

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

Head, i feel baited, and inspired. my camera should be arriving sometime over the weekend by UPS and i'd like to, you know, shoot myself a short set for consideration. i've wanted to for a while now...

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

Gimme_Danger

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

from what I can tell men just don't want to get naked. I run a life drawing class and have a pool of about 8 or 9 women to choose from but only one male. I have advertised and asked people of both sexes straight out but men arent forthcoming.

I think you should send the set in Scott....Head can delete them if he chooses...but you may surprise him

GusTheMynahBird

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

It wasn't what the men ~looked like~, it was what they were ~doing~ which was ugly.  Anyway, nearly all girls look pretty naked.  Few men do.  Body hair on women is natural and beautiful, but on men it's just simian.  It's the way things are.

The difference between the female and male body is the difference between sublime and ridiculous. There's something inherently comical about the male anatomy.

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

I think you should send the set in Scott....Head can delete them if he chooses...but you may surprise him

guys, help me. now i really have a problem. like i said, i wanted to shoot myself cause of my "body dysmorphia" issues. well, my camera arrived over the weekend. i took a few shots of myself, looked at them  and was horrified. these girls have alot more courage than me, or maybe i'm just deficient? (i was an abused kid... was a real trend in the early 70's apparently...)

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

guys, help me. now i really have a problem. like i said, i wanted to shoot myself cause of my "body dysmorphia" issues. well, my camera arrived over the weekend. i took a few shots of myself, looked at them  and was horrified. these girls have alot more courage than me, or maybe i'm just deficient? (i was an abused kid... was a real trend in the early 70's apparently...)

Don't be horrified, the first time I shot myself I cringed at some of the shots I took and I deleted plenty before I gave it in, and even then I'm glad the folio was edited down. Twisting and turning to photograph yourself doesn't always create the beautiful erotica we see on this site. In fact some positions I tried created and uncovered unsightly spare tires and blemishes I had never been aware of. I think the best folios have great use of light, and I think it can make all the difference.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

The difference between the female and male body is the difference between sublime and ridiculous. There's something inherently comical about the male anatomy.

I'm sorry I just have to completely disagree. It seems to me that this is just a socialisation as the classical greeks celebrated the male nude as the epitomy of beauty (probably something to do with the state condoned pederasty that they were all into). Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that women get to have their day but lets not hog the lime light. Men's body's are equally capable of creating the same erotic art that ISM has done for women. Body hair on men should not be shot down as unattractive, I know plenty of girls that go crazy over hairy chests, myself included.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

The difference between the female and male body is the difference between sublime and ridiculous. There's something inherently comical about the male anatomy.

I just thought I might add that I don't find men's cocks comical whether they are flacid or erect, and men feeling that it looks ridiculous is as unhealthy as women thinking their cunts are ugly. Lets us girls and guys vow to be proud of our pink bits eh?

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Evolution Of The Nude

Llandra,
i just read your posts and they made me feel great. i think maybe there wasn't alot of light and i need practice. it's funny, i'm a photog's assistant and retouching artist by profession, but it's a whole new ballgame, this ISM thing. alone, in the "dis"comfort of home and not on a professional set with the "rembrandt lighting" we use...
i need to get more comfortable with the camera & with the "unexpected unsightly spare tires" you mentioned.
although there was one shot i actually LOVED which will keep me experimenting...

wscott

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.