#1 January 11th, 2005 02:11 AM

wantingscott

Member

mysogyny

ism community,
what is the root of mysogyny? this is a personal question for me, and i've spent a great deal of my life trying to understand it. my dad always has belittled my mom all through my growing-up years. even though my mom was the breadwinner and my father was basically a shiftless draftsman and amateur photographer. he abused (sexually) myself and my sisters. rubbed his extra-marrital affairs in my mom's face. mom put up with it for wrongheaded "religious" reasons, but i can't fault her. she did too good of a job providing for the five of us.

when i met my wife a few months out of highschool, i had never me a stronger-willed woman in my life. she was a star-athlete in her highschool (captain of two teams) and not one for putting up with my dad's bullshit behaviour.

we were engaged 2 years later and she is the love of my life 12 years on. true, i am the earner of the family, and do very well, but i always leave finances to her, as i consider her the smarter of us.

i tell my two boys "marry a woman like your mom. be attracted to brains and strong-will first. beauty second."

that's all.

wscott

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

lucille

Member

Re: mysogyny

yeap well, good on you for encouraging your boys to look inside the package, don't forget its not only about what is upstairs but also about what is in the 'heart' or 'soul' whatever you want to call it thats where our true self is.  Don't forget there are intelligent misogynists........... and stupid misogynists! 

Maybe it is a product of a socitey which encourages us to fall in love with one person and retain our sexual thoughts, feelings and desires for that same person.  Sounds stifling to me! Rather I feel desire/love for all men, which is therefore concerntrated on the one man that i choose to be with.  Isn't that what you are doing here at ISM? Enjoying the ability to look at all women, and then seeing your wife as encapsulating everything that you see and more? (plus dat ladie sounds as if she has killler brains!) 

On the otha hand, some would say that 'looking and enjoying' other women is not too far removed from 'being with other women'!! Not my opinion.

By the way does your wife know about ISM?

theda

Member

Re: mysogyny

i'm so sorry to hear what your father did to you and your family.

sexism stems from fear and hate of difference due to personal insecurities. take homophobia for instance, men who are homophobic usually are so because they are so fearful of their own homoerotic feelings that they are trying to suppress.

voyeur2

Member

Re: mysogyny

Your story is heartwarming in that it shows you have risen above your childhood parent modelling and experience.
Root of mysogyny:

I think the base is fear and shame in the core of the personality below the threshold of rational thought .  Possible based on very early life experiences prior to the verbal age, or age where reasoning develops that cause a sort of instinctive fear or shame. 
The person fearing comparison or ashamed of self has to be pre-emptive to prevent the feeling.  Striking first and putting the others on the defensive, keeps the attention aimed away from them.  I think itis so irrational a mind set that it cannot come from some sort of reasoning process and class based judgement.

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Have I ever lied to you before?

wantingscott

Member

Re: mysogyny

well, thanks everybody for hearing me out, i appreciate it. and to answer a few questiosns: 1. my wife knows about ISM, i actually found out about it through our counsellor (a woman), who thought it would be a great way for me to overcome my lingering guilt. 2. yeah, it's funny, i guess, i see so much of my wife in so many of the folios. it's the brains and bravery, and lack of shamefillness, that i love most about this site and about her. 3. i do tell my bopys that their mom is the #1 woman in their lives so treat her with love and tell her you love her...

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

aurorya

Member

Re: mysogyny

I think mysogyny comes with the 4 dominations within Western society: domination of man over nature, domination of whites over non-whites, domination of West over the rest of the world, domination of men over women.  Take away any one of these and the whole thing begins to slowly unravel.  (Sorry, I really am a hippy.)

lucille

Member

Re: mysogyny

wife knows about ISM, i actually found out about it through our counsellor (a woman), who thought it would be a great way for me to overcome my lingering guilt. 2. yeah, it's funny, i guess, i see so much of my wife in so many of the folios. it's the brains and bravery, and lack of shamefillness, that i love most about this site and about her.

wow, good on the counsellor (she must have been pretty open minded and progressive).  I am glad that the site is being used not only as a aid to self pleasure (which of course i have no problem with), but also as a therapeutic tool. 

Also your wife must really be a wonderful woman, and I'm glad that the artists involved in the site are a reflection of those qualities, 'brains and bravery' and vice versa.  Ah, its all part of a healthy sexuality and it seems that you have been able to rise above the legacy of your fathers inability to respect himself. 

on another note (aurorya), we never doubted that you were a fully fledged mung bean eating, patchwork pant wearing hippy! and i agree with the 4 dominations, lets start with the last.......ISM is the bomb

wantingscott

Member

Re: mysogyny

I think mysogyny comes with the 4 dominations within Western society: domination of man over nature, domination of whites over non-whites, domination of West over the rest of the world, domination of men over women.  Take away any one of these and the whole thing begins to slowly unravel.  (Sorry, I really am a hippy.)

you know, aurorya, that's very interesting. my present state of miind is that i'm disgusted with how a certain Western nation (my own) is about to occupy YET ANOTHER non-Western nation. you're not a hippy, and i don't think it's a stretch to see this as colonization... oh, and for anybody that thinks that's a leftist view, i was in new york at work on a certain fateful morning 3 1/2 years ago...

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

gtrvox

Member

Re: mysogyny

oh, and for anybody that thinks that's a leftist view, i was in new york at work on a certain fateful morning 3 1/2 years ago...

No disrespect intended - but how would that preclude leftist views?

gtrvox

Member

Re: mysogyny

I think mysogyny comes with the 4 dominations within Western society: domination of man over nature, domination of whites over non-whites, domination of West over the rest of the world, domination of men over women.  Take away any one of these and the whole thing begins to slowly unravel.  (Sorry, I really am a hippy.)

Misogyny is very common everywhere and has nothing whatsoever to do with Western society. The Taliban, surely the most misogynistic regime ever in existence is a good example. Irrational hatred of women is common in tribes and societies across the globe. The opposite of your argument, in fact, is true: Western societies have fared far better in their attitudes to women, even if in many places there's a ways to go yet. As for domination of man over nature: what can I say? I prefer it to nature dominating humanity. The West dominating the rest of the world....to a certain degree that is true (though if you spend time in Outer Mongolia you perhaps won't see such strong western domination) - but that's basically the law of supply and demand. The societies that "wish" to be dominated (i.e. consumers voting with their wallets) happen to be "dominated". If the Chinese want to have McChicken for lunch or some rainforest natives want to wear Levis - I say, let them have their wish!

wantingscott

Member

Re: mysogyny

No disrespect intended - but how would that preclude leftist views?

i'm just tired of the warmongering-as-entertainment attitude prevalent in so many of the movies, tv shows, and videogames i see advertised here. the most trajic things are glorified (i.e. the TV show "24", the videogame "SOCOM").
and, at least on new york talk radio, anyone who is questioning why the US is in Iraq (and soon to be Iran and Syria) is labled a "lib".
i'm just saying, i was hurt personally on the eleventh and i still question the US's actions right now...

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

jimmioz

Member

Re: mysogyny

i'm just tired of the warmongering-as-entertainment attitude prevalent in so many of the movies, tv shows, and videogames i see advertised here. the most trajic things are glorified (i.e. the TV show "24", the videogame "SOCOM").
and, at least on new york talk radio, anyone who is questioning why the US is in Iraq (and soon to be Iran and Syria) is labled a "lib".
i'm just saying, i was hurt personally on the eleventh and i still question the US's actions right now...

thanks for sharing your very personal story. from what has been said it seems you've managed to overcome quite a lot and that is all credit to you and those who have supported you.

i'm stating the obvious when many thousands were hurt and are still hurting from what happened in nyc a few years ago. the thing that frustrates/annoys me the most is that while the overwhelming majority of countries and world leaders expressed their sympathy for the innocent victims and their families you don't hear that same level of sympathy for the many thousands of innocent victims caught up in the iraq war.

i don't want to get into a debate on the worthiness of such a war but it sickens me when i hear of certain heads of state saying something like "the troops are doing a great job (great job putting innocent lives at risk??)" and "we're winning the war on terror" or words to that effect. to me it lacks real sympathy for the innocent victims in iraq, many who are feeling similar loss/sadness/depression as the families and victims of the tragedy in nyc. i also feel for the troops (US/British and all others) and their families as i also see that as a needless waste of life...

this is a very sensitive issue to many so please just view this as my opinion - i certainly don't want to start such a debate on this forum - anyway i've gone off the original topic to begin with!!! cheers all

Belgareth

Member

Re: mysogyny

I've been away on business for a week or so and I've just picked up on this thread.

It is so heartwarming to find that every reply to this thread is echoing my own thoughts and feeling. I'm an inherent pacifist (not to be confused with cowardice) and I believe that everyone on this planet is born equal, be that they were born in opulence or squalor. It is society which makes us all different as we grow and develop.

I abhor the concept of any one human being dominating another, for the sake of personal, national or global power. My greatest pleasure comes from giving pleasure and my greatest pain from causing pain. Is it selfish, therefore, to avoid causing pain to others and try to make living a pleasant experience?

As a footnote and as an ufortunate member of one of the two nations inflicting pain and suffering on the countries of the Middle East and to those other innocents caught up in those actions, I am ashamed to call myself English!

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[color="Red"]require "help.pl";[/color]

gtrvox

Member

Re: mysogyny

I'm an inherent pacifist (not to be confused with cowardice)

Neville Chamberlain's "Munich agreement" of 1938 was thought of as an act of a pacifist doing the right thing to avoid war. History has judged him to be an appeaser and a coward. Sometimes pacifism is not an option...
(though what all of this discussion, including my own comments are doing on this forum is beyond me ;-)

hallux

Member

Re: mysogyny

ism community,
what is the root of mysogyny? this is a personal question for me, and i've spent a great deal of my life trying to understand it. my dad always has belittled my mom all through my growing-up years. even though my mom was the breadwinner and my father was basically a shiftless draftsman and amateur photographer. he abused (sexually) myself and my sisters. rubbed his extra-marrital affairs in my mom's face. mom put up with it for wrongheaded "religious" reasons, but i can't fault her. she did too good of a job providing for the five of us.

when i met my wife a few months out of highschool, i had never me a stronger-willed woman in my life. she was a star-athlete in her highschool (captain of two teams) and not one for putting up with my dad's bullshit behaviour.

we were engaged 2 years later and she is the love of my life 12 years on. true, i am the earner of the family, and do very well, but i always leave finances to her, as i consider her the smarter of us.

i tell my two boys "marry a woman like your mom. be attracted to brains and strong-will first. beauty second."

that's all.

wscott

You did well. Congrats!

There should be more people like you whose do not perpetrate the awful deeds and blame it on whoever did it to them.

However I think you confused your dad with misogynists. Misogynists don't particularly think well of women but don't necessarily abuse them. Your dad is an arsehole and a loser whose can't score with women, then screw his kids instead!

A good woman, as in a good man, does not necessarily have to be strong. I love women who are soft and warm, who look to me for affection and care, whether they are clever or not so clever..... I love them to bits!!!

Then of course, a bit of good looks help!!??

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: mysogyny

ism community,
what is the root of mysogyny? this is a personal question for me, and i've spent a great deal of my life trying to understand it. my dad always has belittled my mom all through my growing-up years. even though my mom was the breadwinner and my father was basically a shiftless draftsman and amateur photographer. he abused (sexually) myself and my sisters. rubbed his extra-marrital affairs in my mom's face. mom put up with it for wrongheaded "religious" reasons, but i can't fault her. she did too good of a job providing for the five of us.

when i met my wife a few months out of highschool, i had never me a stronger-willed woman in my life. she was a star-athlete in her highschool (captain of two teams) and not one for putting up with my dad's bullshit behaviour.

we were engaged 2 years later and she is the love of my life 12 years on. true, i am the earner of the family, and do very well, but i always leave finances to her, as i consider her the smarter of us.

i tell my two boys "marry a woman like your mom. be attracted to brains and strong-will first. beauty second."

that's all.

wscott

Men's domination (and fear/ hatred) of women dates back to time immemorial. It was prevalent in pre civilized man, in antiquity, in the origin mythology of all three semetic faiths (and much of the rest of their writings, beliefs, and teachings) Jesus had female deciples whose writings were not permitted in the bible by the early fathers of the church who complied it, one I believe was written by Mary Magdalane. Mysogyn still permeates contemporary eastern and western societies. It is pertinant I feel that there is no equivalent word for hatred of men, as men created the language we speak. Who knows why exactly it had to be that way but lets hope one day we can reach the other extreme (of unity, that is, and not female domination of men). Developments for women in the west have been amazing in the last century and the growing influence (very gradually and under much persecution I'll admit)  of the baha'i faith in the east is promising as it is a religion that states explicitly the equality of women on earth and in the eyes of god.

SCSIgirl

Member

Re: mysogyny

ism community,
what is the root of mysogyny? this is a personal question for me, and i've spent a great deal of my life trying to understand it. my dad always has belittled my mom all through my growing-up years. even though my mom was the breadwinner and my father was basically a shiftless draftsman and amateur photographer. he abused (sexually) myself and my sisters. rubbed his extra-marrital affairs in my mom's face. mom put up with it for wrongheaded "religious" reasons, but i can't fault her. she did too good of a job providing for the five of us.

when i met my wife a few months out of highschool, i had never me a stronger-willed woman in my life. she was a star-athlete in her highschool (captain of two teams) and not one for putting up with my dad's bullshit behaviour.

we were engaged 2 years later and she is the love of my life 12 years on. true, i am the earner of the family, and do very well, but i always leave finances to her, as i consider her the smarter of us.

i tell my two boys "marry a woman like your mom. be attracted to brains and strong-will first. beauty second."

that's all.

wscott

Hey!  I'm better than you are....  God/Allah told me so and that's the end of it!!!  Just ask any tyrant in history.  Which reminds me,  has anyone noticed that the biggest tyrants are short?

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"Apple of my Eye", "bated breath", "brave new world", "caught red-handed" - all coined by Shakespeare.

voyeur2

Member

Re: mysogyny

Men's domination (and fear/ hatred) of women dates back to time immemorial. It was prevalent in pre civilized man, in antiquity, in the origin mythology of all three semetic faiths (and much of the rest of their writings, beliefs, and teachings) Jesus had female deciples whose writings were not permitted in the bible by the early fathers of the church who complied it, one I believe was written by Mary Magdalane. Mysogyn still permeates contemporary eastern and western societies. It is pertinant I feel that there is no equivalent word for hatred of men, as men created the language we speak. Who knows why exactly it had to be that way but lets hope one day we can reach the other extreme (of unity, that is, and not female domination of men). Developments for women in the west have been amazing in the last century and the growing influence (very gradually and under much persecution I'll admit)  of the baha'i faith in the east is promising as it is a religion that states explicitly the equality of women on earth and in the eyes of god.

I will go along with the baha'i faith statement whole heartedly, but language? I learned to speak at my mother's breast and at her knee.  Women are the more skilled linguists.  Scribes write the history from the male point of view using the language they have been taught?

Mysogyny?

Hatred born of fear?  Fear of the woman's ability to scorn?  To reject?  To conceive?  To create?  To make the men feel less than?

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Have I ever lied to you before?

antiocus

Member

Re: mysogyny

misanthropy?

>It is pertinant I feel that there is no equivalent word for hatred of men,

voyeur2

Member

Re: mysogyny

misanthropy?

>It is pertinant I feel that there is no equivalent word for hatred of men,

In French he word for hatred of men is misanthrop

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Have I ever lied to you before?

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: mysogyny

misanthropy?

>It is pertinant I feel that there is no equivalent word for hatred of men,

Misanthrope is generally used to mean hatred of people and not specifically men, at least that is what I thought.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: mysogyny

Hey!  I'm better than you are....  God/Allah told me so and that's the end of it!!!  Just ask any tyrant in history.  Which reminds me,  has anyone noticed that the biggest tyrants are short?

Yeah I noticed, I was married to one. What is it with short men?

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: mysogyny

I will go along with the baha'i faith statement whole heartedly, but language? I learned to speak at my mother's breast and at her knee.  Women are the more skilled linguists.  Scribes write the history from the male point of view using the language they have been taught?

Mysogyny?

Hatred born of fear?  Fear of the woman's ability to scorn?  To reject?  To conceive?  To create?  To make the men feel less than?

Am I to take it from this that you feel mysogyny is justifiable? I feel your listed questions tacitly imply some issues with women, perhaps you also learnt these at your mothers breast and knee, I don't know, what I do know is that fear doesn't inspire hatred by itself, it needs to be coupled with ignorance, the inability to empathise or a need to shift responsibility for what one is lacking onto another person/ gender.

voyeur2

Member

Re: mysogyny

Am I to take it from this that you feel mysogyny is justifiable? I feel your listed questions tacitly imply some issues with women, perhaps you also learnt these at your mothers breast and knee, I don't know, what I do know is that fear doesn't inspire hatred by itself, it needs to be coupled with ignorance, the inability to empathise or a need to shift responsibility for what one is lacking onto another person/ gender.

I am not exactly a walking dictionary, but I think the best interpretation of misanthrop would be a general hatred or dislike of mankind in general - including both sexes.

As for justifying mysogyny, I did not intend to.  I do not think any undifferentiated hate based on age, race, sex, colour, religion or any other category for normal humans is justifiable.

There has to be a reason for dislike or hatred of others that is based on decisions or actions or beliefs taken or expoused deliberately and consciously by the hatee.  They have to - deserve it on a personal level.

Sort of like hating all Germans during WWll, because Germany was the 'enemy'.  Or because of Nazi atrocities.  An absurdity.  Even the 2 year olds?  Come on!  But it was a common expression.

Being born something or other is not a justifiable reason for hatred.

I believe that fear - rational or irrational - can be expressed outwardly in many ways, one is to assign the fear causing agent all kinds of motivations with no supporting evidence, and to react with hatred because of that.

I wanted to suggest that fear + ignorence + shifting responsibility + lack of empathy leads to assigning the various things like scorn, rejection, envy and so forth to the other as a justification for the hatred.

But you said it better and more simply.

Proving once again the superiority of females in verbal things?

BTW congrats on leaving the tiny tyrent.  Obviously you are better grounded than I.  It took me 20 years to leave my tyrent.

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Have I ever lied to you before?

wantingscott

Member

Re: mysogyny

i heard on NPR yesterday that there's a large rally in my city for women of a certain culture. the rally protests the practice of "stoning women to death". now, i consider myself up on things, but i gotta tell you, fuukk!!! i was deeply deeply disturbed to hear that in these certain cultures, stoning of women was the law of the land!!!
so my point is: lets say hypothetically that iinstead of going to the rally (which i am doing saturday midday), i joined the Peace Corps instead. What comes next? Seriously, what can a person from one culture do to solve a specific problem in another culture?

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.